Author Topic: interesting take...from a Hall of Famer  (Read 4856 times)

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SWOLE49er

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Gill2003

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Reply #1 on: June 20, 2009, 08:00:56 pm
Interesting... Indeed.


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Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 09:32:33 pm
I wholeheartedly agree with him regarding the tainted records and such.  I disagree with his owner remarks.  The owners made more money off of the roid babies than they lost.  The casual fan comes to the park to see home runs, regardless of whether or not they are real or artificially enhanced.  And they showed up in droves during the roid era, blind to what was really going on or not caring about it.  That's why the owners never did a damn thing about steroid use when it was VERY obvious in the mid-90's that more and more players were juicing.  I don't think any of the roid babies will get in the HOF if their vote has to come from the veterans committee, but there are many writers who sadly don't care if they cheated and will vote them in.  I hope the Fred McGriff's, Andre Dawson's, and Eddie Murray's of the game will wind up getting there due once the roid babies are outed.
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SWOLE49er

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Reply #3 on: June 21, 2009, 05:46:48 am
Quote from: X-49er;415119
I wholeheartedly agree with him regarding the tainted records and such. I disagree with his owner remarks. The owners made more money off of the roid babies than they lost. The casual fan comes to the park to see home runs, regardless of whether or not they are real or artificially enhanced. And they showed up in droves during the roid era, blind to what was really going on or not caring about it. That's why the owners never did a damn thing about steroid use when it was VERY obvious in the mid-90's that more and more players were juicing. I don't think any of the roid babies will get in the HOF if their vote has to come from the veterans committee, but there are many writers who sadly don't care if they cheated and will vote them in. I hope the Fred McGriff's, Andre Dawson's, and Eddie Murray's of the game will wind up getting there due once the roid babies are outed.

Eddie Murrary is already in.  Don Mattingly, Jim Kaat and Bert Blyleven should be in as well.
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X-49er

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Reply #4 on: June 21, 2009, 11:11:11 am
Quote from: SWOLE49er;415136
Eddie Murrary is already in.  Don Mattingly, Jim Kaat and Bert Blyleven should be in as well.


Yeah, he's in.  My point was that the guys who got their numbers clean now look paltry compared to the roid babies.  Jim Rice just eked in this year, and had the roids not been "uncovered" within the last few years he might have been left out for good.  The HOF debate is one side of it, but what about all the guys that lost their spots or never got a shot because of the roid boys.  Those are the guys I feel for even more.
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Charlotte2002

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Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 11:27:12 am
So Wade should we discount your stats and everyone elses stats who popped greenies each day to get up for the games?


I hate this holier than thou ****.
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Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 11:34:43 am
Quote from: Charlotte2002;415161
So Wade should we discount your stats and everyone elses stats who popped greenies each day to get up for the games?


I hate this holier than thou ****.


Comparing greenies to steroids for performance enhancement is like comparing premium gasoline to nitrous oxide for a performance boost in your car.  Greenies probably did nothing or were a detriment to performance.  At best, they helped the players stay awake and alert.  They don't help you hit the ball 40 feet further or throw the ball 7-10 mph harder.  Is using greenies okay?  No, but they don't completely alter the record book from their "boost" in performance.
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Charlotte2002

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Reply #7 on: June 21, 2009, 11:44:54 am
Quote from: X-49er;415162
Comparing greenies to steroids for performance enhancement is like comparing premium gasoline to nitrous oxide for a performance boost in your car.  Greenies probably did nothing or were a detriment to performance.  At best, they helped the players stay awake and alert.  They don't help you hit the ball 40 feet further or throw the ball 7-10 mph harder.  Is using greenies okay?  No, but they don't completely alter the record book from their "boost" in performance.

In Daryl Strawberry's new book he talks about one instance where he was out with David Cone until 8am and had a day game that day.  He popped some greenies and went 3-4 with 2 doubles.

The added distance on HRs by steroid users is debatable.  Reaction time and bat speed are important factors when it comes to hitting and power, and greenies can give someone a significant advantage when it comes to those two things.
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Reply #8 on: June 21, 2009, 02:02:25 pm
Quote from: Charlotte2002;415165
In Daryl Strawberry's new book he talks about one instance where he was out with David Cone until 8am and had a day game that day.  He popped some greenies and went 3-4 with 2 doubles.


He was probably high on cocaine, too.  Strawberry never hit over .300, never hit more than 32 doubles in a season, and never hit 40 HR in any season.  Darryl Strawberry on steroids would have hit at least 2/3 more doubles and HR.  Take a look at Sosa's numbers before and after steroids.  Look at Bonds.  Look at Thome's.  Look at Pudge Rodriguez's.  Look at Caminiti's stats before, during, and after steroids.  The stats don't lie.

Quote
The added distance on HRs by steroid users is debatable.  Reaction time and bat speed are important factors when it comes to hitting and power, and greenies can give someone a significant advantage when it comes to those two things.


Wrong.  That sounds like something Barry Bonds would say.  The stronger you are, the faster you can swing the bat.  The faster you swing the bat, the farther the ball goes.  Brady Anderson had only hit more than 20 HR in a season ONCE in his career.  He juices up for 1996 and hits 50.  Look at A-Roid and Big Poppi's numbers now that they appear to be roid free.  They are back to being human again.  Watch to see what Manny does when he comes back.  If he's off the juice, his numbers will flop.

Roids don't help your hand-eye coordination, but they allow you to wait a little longer to swing at a 95mph fastball and still be able to catch up with it because you can now have the increased bat speed to do it.  It's the difference between hitting an inside pitch in the left field bleachers versus getting your bat broken when you were jammed.  Ever see a broken-bat home run before steroids?  When someone can swing a bat so hard that it drives the ball over the fence even after breaking their bat, that's not natural.  The maple bats do break easier, but hitting a HR off the hands or the end of the bat is not something that happens.
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Chisox17

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Reply #9 on: June 21, 2009, 05:13:41 pm
Quote from: X-49er;415176
Take a look at Sosa's numbers before and after steroids.  Look at Bonds.  Look at Thome's.  Look at Pudge Rodriguez's.  Look at Caminiti's stats before, during, and after steroids...


Thome?  Pretty sure Thome is clean.  I could be wrong, but I dont ever remember him ever being accused of juicing.  

The others however were on the juice.
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Reply #10 on: June 21, 2009, 08:59:47 pm
Preach on Wade (tho I don't care for the owner bit either)

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metro

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Reply #11 on: June 21, 2009, 10:28:04 pm
I want Bly in pretty bad for selfish reasons.  I played a couple years with his son Todd, and spent some time with Bert.  He is a very nice person and would go out to bars with us, and pick up the tab, bring his hot gf, and all round life of the party.  He would sit in the bullpen with us and tell stories and pretty much keep us in awe at whatever he said.  His curveball is the greatest ever, undisputed.


metro

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Reply #12 on: June 21, 2009, 10:30:26 pm
Quote from: Chisox17;415185
Thome?  Pretty sure Thome is clean.  I could be wrong, but I dont ever remember him ever being accused of juicing.  

The others however were on the juice.

I think Thome did something.  I think every power hitter did something from 95-2000.  Anyone who hit over 40 bombs goes out with the bathwater.


SWOLE49er

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Reply #13 on: June 21, 2009, 11:10:51 pm
this may be blastemy...but i truly believe griffey jr did something.  yeah he is suppose to be the kid and the natural...
but the manner in which he broke down is a clear indication to steroid use.  hamstrings and tendons dont just explode and break down.  dont get me wrong...he had some serious injuries like the broken wrist while running into the wall...
but in such great condition in the prime of his career...just doesnt add up.
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Charlotte2002

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Reply #14 on: June 28, 2009, 07:52:49 pm
http://www.sportsworldny.com/lofiversion/index.php/t22343.html

Found this online when I was looking up something on Albert Pujols.

The idea that Jose Conseco brought steroids into baseball is laughable.  PEDs have been a part of pro sports for years, but people never want to give the good ol' days a black eye.
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Reply #15 on: July 05, 2009, 11:56:10 pm
Quote from: Charlotte2002;416502
http://www.sportsworldny.com/lofiversion/index.php/t22343.html

Found this online when I was looking up something on Albert Pujols.

The idea that Jose Conseco brought steroids into baseball is laughable.  PEDs have been a part of pro sports for years, but people never want to give the good ol' days a black eye.

Comparing steroids of that era to the steroids that began being used heavy in the late 80's till now is like comparing the baseball used in the teens to that of the "live ball era" that began in 1920.  Babe Ruth hit 29 home runs in 1919, and then hit 54 in 1920.  Hmmmmmm?  Juice?  Nope.  Just a new hard ball.  Hank Aaron benifitted from Fulton County Stadium more than anything, and the addition of Orlando Cepada to the batting order in 1969 after teams were able to pith around him more in 1968.

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The relatively high elevation meant that the stadium was relatively favorable to long-ball hitters, giving rise to the nickname The Launching Pad. That factor helped boost Henry Aaron's home run output, and he reached the all-time record sooner here than he might have in Milwaukee, even if the effects of County Stadium were more dramatic in the 1950s than in the 1960s.

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1964 Photo, Used on July 23, 2007 SI Cover



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You're right, he HAD to be on the juice.  :rolleyes:  The only muscle on Hank that got much bigger was his table muscle.  Am I naive enough to think that there were no "steroids" of some kind in the years Hank played?  No.  Is there a spec of evidence against him?  No.  Tom House mentions pitchers in his ramblings, and says that whatever he took did not help him gain velocity.  The pitchers using in since 1995 have gained velocity.  Who's to say that the roids of that era even worked, and until someone gives some concrete proof to pre-mid-80's use, I don't see anything before that time being tainted.
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Ninerballin

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Reply #16 on: July 06, 2009, 02:54:15 am
Quote from: SWOLE49er;415212
this may be blastemy...but i truly believe griffey jr did something.  yeah he is suppose to be the kid and the natural...
but the manner in which he broke down is a clear indication to steroid use.  hamstrings and tendons dont just explode and break down.  dont get me wrong...he had some serious injuries like the broken wrist while running into the wall...
but in such great condition in the prime of his career...just doesnt add up.

Griffey wasn't big on lifting weights so I've read.  I guess no one believes guys are just injury prone.  The combination of not lifting weight plus all that time played in the King Dome on astroturf are easily big enough factors to explain The Kid's injury bug.

If you look at Griffey, he's still quite slim, but of course he's added on some weight over the years (metabolism slowing, getting older).  He never once blew up like a Barry Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, or Canseco did.


SWOLE49er

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Reply #17 on: July 06, 2009, 06:38:49 am
true...but steroids and/or other performance enhancing drugs are not all about getting huge.  it's what happens internally and the long term effects of doing such harmful things to yourself.  and these drugs...short term the goal is to recover faster from working out so you can do more weight and more reps and/or recovering from injury.  in the process...youre doing more harm than good.  
 
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metro

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Reply #18 on: July 06, 2009, 08:11:45 am
Its easy to cast stones.  I bet 99% of sports fans who rip on roids would do it themselves.  If you are looking at most likely getting cut/unemployed vs taking a shot in your ass that keeps you on a MLB roster, I wager you take the juice a yr or two.  Especially if you have no other skills for employment.   Alot of guys made a couple million then couldn't hang once testing began.  I would of taken it to throw 95mph instead of 89-90, but nobody was doing it in the minors in 97, nor was it even a topic in the locker room that it improves you.  Roids were just something for weightlifters.

The biggest problem I have with roids, were Hall of Fame talents becoming super freaks like Bonds and Mac.  Those guys were already physically freaky naturally and didn't need to worry about "staying on a roster."  They had millions and millions, fame, records, etc but that was not enough.


MeanJoeGreen

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Reply #19 on: July 06, 2009, 09:51:09 am
Pretty interesting tie with Davie Johnson, Aaron and roids.  I have to say, I even suspect players like Mantle in the 60's.  Attached is a link with a good story about the Chargers in the 60's.  One of their assistant coaches was Chuck Noll, who had his own group of roiders win 4 Super Bowls in short order.  Give Lambert some roids and he is a hall of famer.  Without them, he may make the team on special teams?

With the 90's, its almost like roids left the back room and became an exact science with explosive results.  It was like 105 degrees on some days and guys like Bonds would be wearing long sleeve black shirts to hide their roided arms.  Anyone who denies PED's are an extreme advantage is clueless or in denial.  Nothing else but high winds can turn a routine pop-fly into a HR.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3866837


Charlotte2002

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Reply #20 on: July 06, 2009, 10:00:13 am
Generally speaking steroids don't make you bigger, but they make your muscles recover quicker, so you can work out more often and harder, thus the increase in muscle mass.

The workout regimen of athletes in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and even the early 80s, was less muscle mass driven, guys didn't get jacked like they do now.

So while pics of Aaron or MAntle or anyone else back then might not show increased muscle mass, their recovery could have been quicker so it allowed them to play more often, and there is also that part about increase in bat speed / reflexes.

The point I was trying to make is we don't know exactly what guys did back then or what guys are even doing right now.  To pull this holier than thou crap is no different than what Palmerio or Clemens or anyone else does when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.  The best thing to do, is just keep your mouth shut.
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casstommy

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Reply #21 on: July 06, 2009, 10:08:33 am
Quote from: metro;417678
Its easy to cast stones. I bet 99% of sports fans who rip on roids would do it themselves.

 
Very true.
 
I'm no baseball fan, but I understand the argument from some that roids have destroyed the "sanctity" of the game.  
 
That said...I'd do it in a heartbeat if I knew I could get a couple million out of hit.


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Reply #22 on: July 06, 2009, 10:47:29 am
Quote from: Charlotte2002;417694

The point I was trying to make is we don't know exactly what guys did back then or what guys are even doing right now.  To pull this holier than thou crap is no different than what Palmerio or Clemens or anyone else does when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.  The best thing to do, is just keep your mouth shut.


If the guys that did not cheat want to sound off on it, I want to hear from them.  Those are the guys who should be talking instead of the media and us fans.  They are the ones that know/knew more about what was or was not going on than we do.  If their slate is clean, then I would like for them to speak out against the PED's.  Most of the clean guys during the last 20 years are hesitant to speak out about it not because they were using, but because they knew it was going on and do not want to get dragged into a situation where they are forced to rat out their teammates.  The teammate code almost always trumps the ethics code.  Right or wrong, that's the way it is with 99% of professional athletes.  Had Canseco not spoken out when he did and broken the teammate code, the usage would still be rampant and there would be no testing program in MLB.  IF there is something to be reported about widespread steroid usage in the 60's and 70's, one would think an ex-MLB player needing money would have put it out there in print.  When that happens, I guess we'll find out if it was true.  Since there were no 2B hitting 30+ homers during that era and very few players hitting over 40, I'll tend to believe that it was not widespread.
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Charlotte2002

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Reply #23 on: July 06, 2009, 10:50:16 am
Quote from: X-49er;417708
If the guys that did not cheat want to sound off on it, I want to hear from them.  Those are the guys who should be talking instead of the media and us fans.  They are the ones that know/knew more about what was or was not going on than we do.  If their slate is clean, then I would like for them to speak out against the PED's.  Most of the clean guys during the last 20 years are hesitant to speak out about it not because they were using, but because they knew it was going on and do not want to get dragged into a situation where they are forced to rat out their teammates.  The teammate code almost always trumps the ethics code.  Right or wrong, that's the way it is with 99% of professional athletes.  Had Canseco not spoken out when he did and broken the teammate code, the usage would still be rampant and there would be no testing program in MLB.  IF there is something to be reported about widespread steroid usage in the 60's and 70's, one would think an ex-MLB player needing money would have put it out there in print.  When that happens, I guess we'll find out if it was true.  Since there were no 2B hitting 30+ homers during that era and very few players hitting over 40, I'll tend to believe that it was not widespread.

How many guys have said they were clean that weren't?  I bet you there are 101 others on a list as well.

People lie.
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Reply #24 on: July 06, 2009, 11:01:46 am
Quote from: Charlotte2002;417710
How many guys have said they were clean that weren't?  I bet you there are 101 others on a list as well.

People lie.


Palmeiro, Sosa, Bonds, McGwire, Manny, Clemens... off the top my head.  I think I made it clear that if anyone was going to speak out that they needed to be clean, Boggs included.  If Wade did steroids, he got a hold of some bad product.

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If their slate is clean, then I would like for them to speak out against the PED's.
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