Author Topic: THE TIME IS NOW!  (Read 7064 times)

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N1NER

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Reply #25 on: July 13, 2009, 12:20:11 pm
Quote from: bleedsgreenandgold;418872
You're comparing apples to oranges. Nobody should make the HOF based on comparsion to another player. If anything, at least find another 1B to compare him to.


What does position in the field have to do with numbers you produce at the plate?  I didn't post gold gloves or fielding %.  If I did, I would agree with you.  The only other 1st Baseman that would compare to Mattingly in the field would be Hernandez.


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Reply #26 on: July 13, 2009, 01:18:02 pm
Quote from: N1NER;418871

What's the difference between Puckett getting in and Mattingly not.  (Note: I think Puckett deserves to be in Cooperstown.)


I can think of two:








Here's another:



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Normmm

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Reply #27 on: July 13, 2009, 01:55:13 pm
Quote from: Chisox17;418782
I know I'm a little biased, but you have to be kidding me about Frank Thomas! For about a decade he was arguably the most dominant offensive player in the game. Look up his stats. The guy hit 500+ HRs and drove in over 1700 runs for crying out loud, all while batting over .300 for his career, wtf do you want??
 
It amazes me that anyone could think otherwise. And he got all those numbers cleanly, he offered to take blood tests multiple times.

Does he get in as a first baseman or as a DH.  He only played about 5 complete seasons at 1B.  Don't get me wrong, I do think he's a great hitter.  But if there was no DH he wouldn't have the 500 HRs and 1700 rbi's, etc.

First base is probably the most difficult position of all the positions to stand out with hitting #s.  First base is loaded with great hitters.  Here are some other first baseman in Thomas' era.  I'd say probably all of them were better fielders than Thomas, and they were not too shabby at the plate either.

Jon Olerud
Fred McGriff
Tito Martinez
Todd Helton
Andres Galaraga
Will Clark
Mark Grace
Carlos Delgado
Mark McGwire
John Kruk
Jeff Bagwell
Rafael Palmeiro
Jim Thome
Jason Giambi
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 03:54:27 pm by Normmm »

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


JoeSixPack

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Reply #28 on: July 13, 2009, 03:22:13 pm
Quote from: Normmm;418889
Does he get in as a first baseman or as a DH.  


Since you mentioned DH.  Does Edgar Martinez deserve to be a HOF'r?

18 seasons
.312 career batting average
.418 career on base %
.515 career slugging %
309 HRs
7 time all star
2 times led the AL in batting average
5 Silver Slugger awards


Dusty Baker: "He's one of the best right-handed hitters ever seen."


Normmm

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Reply #29 on: July 13, 2009, 03:43:17 pm
Quote from: JoeSixPack;418897
Since you mentioned DH.  Does Edgar Martinez deserve to be a HOF'r?

18 seasons
.312 career batting average
.418 career on base %
.515 career slugging %
309 HRs
7 time all star
2 times led the AL in batting average
5 Silver Slugger awards


Dusty Baker: "He's one of the best right-handed hitters ever seen."

Well, that's kind of my point.  If Thomas gets in as a DH, I think it definitely opens the door for somebody like Edgar.  If he gets in as a 1B then I think guys like McGriff, Clark, Palmeiro and Bagwell have to be considered.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 05:37:53 pm by Normmm »

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


Charlotte2002

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Reply #30 on: July 13, 2009, 03:54:15 pm
SS, CF and C don't have to put up ridiculous numbers to be Hall of Famers, their defense is more important than their batting #s in most cases.
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NLP

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Reply #31 on: July 13, 2009, 08:43:51 pm
Rafael Palmeiro = never.  Caught lying about the juice.  Even if everyone was doing it, he's got the Scarlet Letter.
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Reply #32 on: July 13, 2009, 08:51:12 pm
Quote from: NLP;418963
Rafael Palmeiro = never.  Caught lying about the juice.  Even if everyone was doing it, he's got the Scarlet Letter.


If anyone that used steroids gets in, then Palmeiro gets in also.  Just because he got "caught" and the other known and obvious users did not does not make Palmeiro any more guilty than the rest of the roid boys.  The voters can't be double hypocrites.
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lucky57

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Reply #33 on: July 13, 2009, 10:23:16 pm
Only way that lying sack of **** ever gets in is 50 years from now thru the "old timers" entrance.


Normmm

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Reply #34 on: July 13, 2009, 11:39:36 pm
Quote from: NLP;418963
Rafael Palmeiro = never.  Caught lying about the juice.  Even if everyone was doing it, he's got the Scarlet Letter.

I don't think he's going to get in either.  But I agree with X, it's hypocritical.  There's hardily an eligible player over the past 20 seasons where there isn't some suspicion over steroid use.  There's no doubt in my mind that Bonds and Clemens used, and I think they're both locks to get in.

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


Normmm

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Reply #35 on: July 13, 2009, 11:42:12 pm
Quote from: lucky57;418987
Only way that lying sack of **** ever gets in is 50 years from now thru the "old timers" entrance.

LOL.  Which liar are you talking about, Bonds, McGwire, ARod, Clemens, Ramirez, Sosa or Palmeiro?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 10:08:07 am by Normmm »

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


Chisox17

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Reply #36 on: July 14, 2009, 12:31:04 pm
Quote from: Normmm;418889
Does he get in as a first baseman or as a DH. He only played about 5 complete seasons at 1B. Don't get me wrong, I do think he's a great hitter. But if there was no DH he wouldn't have the 500 HRs and 1700 rbi's, etc.

 
First baseman.  He played 11 seasons primarily at 1b.  And yes, he would definitely still have 500+ HRs and 1700 rbi's if he had stayed at 1b.
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ertel2011

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Reply #37 on: July 14, 2009, 12:34:56 pm
ron santo deserves to be in the hall of fame.


Normmm

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Reply #38 on: July 14, 2009, 02:12:48 pm
Quote from: Chisox17;419091
First baseman.  He played 11 seasons primarily at 1b.  And yes, he would definitely still have 500+ HRs and 1700 rbi's if he had stayed at 1b.

Not too sure how accurate this is, but this site shows him playing 1B primarily from 92-97, and switching to mostly DH in 98.  Then they got Konerko in 99.  It'll be interesting to see how much they value the DH.  I think he Thome are in similar positions.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thomafr04.shtml

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


lucky57

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Reply #39 on: July 14, 2009, 02:17:43 pm
Quote from: Normmm;419022
LOL.  Which liar are you talking about, Bonds, McGwire, ARod, Clemens, Ramirez, Sosa or Palmeiro?


Was talking about Raffie...but obviously he's got company.1 guy in the media who's opinion I actually respect,Bob Costas,did a great analysis of a few of these guys careers and their chances for the HOF, his opinion is that Bonds and Clemens would get in based upon #'s that it's believed that they were getting before "juicing"(tho obviously noone knows for sure when each started).....He made a great case that McGwire shouldn't get in because of how dramatically his power #'s shot up with the juice,and that was really 99% of McGwires case for the Hall..He wasn't a particularly good defensive player and surely wouldn't get in on his batting ave. stats.


J Feet

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Reply #40 on: July 14, 2009, 02:19:37 pm
Joe Carter should be in the HOVG.
 
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JoeSixPack

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Reply #41 on: July 14, 2009, 02:23:21 pm
Quote from: lucky57;419112
Was talking about Raffie...but obviously he's got company.1 guy in the media who's opinion I actually respect,Bob Costas,did a great analysis of a few of these guys careers and their chances for the HOF, his opinion is that Bonds and Clemens would get in based upon #'s that it's believed that they were getting before "juicing"(tho obviously noone knows for sure when each started).....He made a great case that McGwire shouldn't get in because of how dramatically his power #'s shot up with the juice,and that was really 99% of McGwires case for the Hall..He wasn't a particularly good defensive player and surely wouldn't get in on his batting ave. stats.


Disagree (with Costas, I guess) on Bonds......numbers were good, but not HOF caliber, before he started altering his physical appearance.

McGwire and Bonds have no business in the Baseball Hall of Fame.  The others are tough calls.


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Reply #42 on: July 14, 2009, 08:32:54 pm
Quote from: lucky57;419112
Was talking about Raffie...but obviously he's got company.1 guy in the media who's opinion I actually respect,Bob Costas,did a great analysis of a few of these guys careers and their chances for the HOF, his opinion is that Bonds and Clemens would get in based upon #'s that it's believed that they were getting before "juicing"(tho obviously noone knows for sure when each started).....He made a great case that McGwire shouldn't get in because of how dramatically his power #'s shot up with the juice,and that was really 99% of McGwires case for the Hall..He wasn't a particularly good defensive player and surely wouldn't get in on his batting ave. stats.


Hmmmmm...  so the Black Sox and Pete Rose get no chance to get in the HOF based on their stats before their scandals, but the roid babies do?  They cheated far longer and far more often than those banned for baseball, and Costas still thinks they're deserving.  Give me a break.
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SWOLE49er

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Reply #43 on: July 18, 2009, 06:47:11 pm
BUMP
 
Criteria for entry into the HOF:
"Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing
ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and
contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."


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Noreaster

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Reply #44 on: July 18, 2009, 09:07:42 pm
If Don Mattingly gets into the HOF before Pete Rose (the player, not the coach), then it no longer has any meaning whatsoever.

Mattingly was good, but not great.  He played for the Yankees for over a decade, almost two, and never won a World Series (did he even make it to one?).

Rose was way more impressive as a player, but is banned based on poor decisions when he was a manager.


SWOLE49er

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Reply #45 on: July 19, 2009, 12:04:03 am
is Mattingly at fault for his teams failure?  and when he did finally get to the playoffs...wasnt he the one that excelled above everyone else batting over .400?  thank you jack mcdowell for blowin that one for us!
 
anyways...
the list goes on and on on all the players that should be in...
mattingly
blyleven
kaat
dawson
hodges
mcguire
among others...
 
rose is a whole other issue that we dont have time or the energy to waste.
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hootie

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Reply #46 on: July 27, 2009, 05:54:28 am
Quote from: Chisox17;418733
It's the Hall of Fame, not the hall of really good.
 
He only had three seasons where he had 200+ hits, only hit over 30 homers THREE times (never hit over 35), and drove in 100+ runs only 5 times.  I know, I know, his back.  You can't make excuses though, you either have a HOF career, or you don't.  Koufax is one rare exception to the rule.
 
Let's let everyone who ever hit 30 home runs in a season into the hall while we're at it, jeez.  
 
I really like Mattingly, but there's no way he should be a HOFer.


Better than Cal Ripkin- I know, I know, he was a shortstop.

Mattingly was also so good in the field that he started a DP playing third base on time- I saw it.
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hootie

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Reply #47 on: July 27, 2009, 05:59:47 am
Quote from: Noreaster;419802
If Don Mattingly gets into the HOF before Pete Rose (the player, not the coach), then it no longer has any meaning whatsoever.

Mattingly was good, but not great.  He played for the Yankees for over a decade, almost two, and never won a World Series (did he even make it to one?).

Rose was way more impressive as a player, but is banned based on poor decisions when he was a manager.


You're right- take Marino out of the NFL HOF
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