Author Topic: Grade the Bobcats draft moves  (Read 9679 times)

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sportsman1417

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Reply #25 on: June 27, 2011, 08:15:08 am
Gerald Wallace is what I like to call a garbage star. He plays harder than almost every other player on the court. This is why he gets to the line and will have 2-3 offensive rebound put backs a game. Very good defense but should never be considered a star for your team. You would never run a play for him to be a spot up shooter at the end of the game.

Jackson is on the down slide. Jordan came out this past year after the Wallace trade and clearly said he was not going to be battling with other teams for the 8th seed. You think keeping both of these players is for the best? With them...made it to the 8th spot and fought hard to get swept by Magic. Now, you can assume the Heat/Bulls are going to be top every year. That means if Cats are 7-8 you can guarantee they are going to get swept. With old team or new. This draft was weak so they got who was the best. Brown sucks at center...yet I am sure he will be back. Bismack plays hard (Just like Wallace) but can't score. Kemba...a little undersized but hopefully can play a jason terry style, if not start.

The Tyson trade was very unfortunate. We needed to shed money, so they said and I guess that is all we could do. However, we all know that when you are on a good team your play is elevated. He never played that good here consistently. There were times he did, but not consistently when he was healthy.

Something had to be done. They got good value with Wallace trade. The jury is still out for Jackson trade. You are saying who is better without ever seeing the players on the court.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 08:18:16 am by sportsman1417 »


Normmm

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Reply #26 on: June 27, 2011, 12:22:48 pm

Something had to be done. They got good value with Wallace trade. The jury is still out for Jackson trade. You are saying who is better without ever seeing the players on the court.

Like I said in my previous post, I agree something had to be done too.  I'm just not sure they've upgraded.  Every team can use a Gerald Wallace type player.  They're very hard to find.  You need an unassuming garbage player to compliment your star player.

You're also saying who is better without ever seeing the players play.  As far as getting good value for Wallace, they did get a top 10 pick in Biyombo.  But he's a risk.  The Bobcats will even tell you that.  I'm just very skeptical of him being able to put up 15 and 9 like Wallace did.

The other players we have seen.  Whether Chandler played better or worse for the Bobcats, he's certainly better than Najera and Carroll.  And whether Jackson is declining or not, he's definitely better than Maggette.

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


Normmm

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Reply #27 on: June 27, 2011, 12:24:24 pm
This just in....David West is going to test Free Agency.

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


sportsman1417

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Reply #28 on: June 27, 2011, 01:07:41 pm

"Like I said in my previous post, I agree something had to be done too.  I'm just not sure they've upgraded.  Every team can use a Gerald Wallace type player.  They're very hard to find.  You need an unassuming garbage player to compliment your star player.

You're also saying who is better without ever seeing the players play.  As far as getting good value for Wallace, they did get a top 10 pick in Biyombo.  But he's a risk.  The Bobcats will even tell you that.  I'm just very skeptical of him being able to put up 15 and 9 like Wallace did.

The other players we have seen.  Whether Chandler played better or worse for the Bobcats, he's certainly better than Najera and Carroll.  And whether Jackson is declining or not, he's definitely better than Maggette."

 
 
I never said the players/picks we got are better. I am just justifying the trades (besides Tyson because we know that trade sucked). If we kept both those two players..then henderson never plays. Look at his stats. Feb 12 and 4. March 14 3 and 2(Assist). April 16 5 4. Those number are solid for starting half the year. If the improvement continues then you could expect 20 5 5 this season. Moving Gerald got rid of his salry, 2 first rounders, and got Henderson in the starting role. Solid move.
 
Jackson still produces but he is not going to be top scorer with Bogut and Jennings. Jennings shoots the ball too much for that. Bismack is not going to score. That is known. He is here for defense and rebounding. The cats have other scores. DJ, Walker, Henderson, Diaw, Thomas, Maggette are able of dropping 15(maybe not Walker yet).
 
I dont value the trade by what you get in return. It was known we dumped for salary and to get other players in the game..Just like letting Felton go. We had DJ. He played good in NY but what PG doesnt in that system. Not too good in Denver and now got shipped back to be with Wallace in Por.
 
We are younger and building. This team was going no where with Jackson and Wallace. Now they have some young pieces to build with. I like the direction, finally, they are moving in


Normmm

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Reply #29 on: June 27, 2011, 03:39:24 pm
I love your optimism, and I hope I'm wrong.  There's still 3 huge pieces left for the Bobcats before a true grade can happen.

1) They're positioning for the Lottery Pick in the 2012 draft.  If they're able to get a Durant, Howard or Lebron James type franchise player, job accomplished. 

But that depends on 2 things, that they actually get no worse than a top 3 pick.  Because with the lottery, regardless of how they finish they could still draft 6 or so.  Second, it assumes that if they draft in the top 3 that a franchise player will actually be there.

2) The 2012 pick for the Gerald Wallace trade.  Portland should still be a fairly good team next season, so it probably won't be a top 20 pick.  Even if they tank, Portland will not lose the pick if it's 1-8.  So best case scenario is the pick will be #9.  If they're able to get a Biyombo type talent, or move into the top 10, job accomplished.

3) Lastly, with the salary cap space that is cleared up, what do they end up doing in regards of signing a major free agent?  That's probably the biggest question.  If they sign say a Dwight Howard and David West, job accomplished.

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


Normmm

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Reply #30 on: June 27, 2011, 03:44:47 pm
Oh yeah, you make a good point about Henderson.  He would not have gotten that playing time with Wallace still on the team.  If all of the other pieces fall into place, I agree that he could fit in nicely.

Also, I do like the Walker pick.  I think he can easily be as good as DJ.

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


sportsman1417

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Reply #31 on: June 27, 2011, 03:47:02 pm
I agree. I dont even really like the Bobcats, but since I live here I do support them. Maybe my optimism is just wishful thinking that something good will turn out  ;D


CMack124

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Reply #32 on: July 22, 2011, 06:31:19 pm
Seems they've thrown everything towards winning the lottery pick next season and hopefully signing a high end free agent(Dwight Howard, etc).  If they are able to get a Durant or Lebron James type in the lottery next season and sign a Dwight Howard type, they will look like geniuses.  But it seems like a high gamble.
They have zero chance at landing a marquee free agent, just isn't going to happen unless the CBA changes things so that only teams with "Bob" in their name can sign Dwight Howard.

But you actually nailed it, the way you win the NBA is through the draft.  You can be very bad and get a high pick in a good draft (see Orlando, Miami, Portland x3, OKC, etc..) or you can luck into a star (LAL, Dallas).  The financial situation makes it nearly impossible to build any other way, you have to have a young, cheap superstar and fill in the pieces around him well enough to convince him to stick around for a second and third contract.

How many teams to win championships in the past 10 years did so with a best player that they didn't get through the draft?  The first 2 Lakers wins with Shaq maybe, anybody else?  That Pistons team maybe, depending on who you want their best player to be.

Anyway, the point is that I agree with the Bobcats rebuilding,  history tells us they are going to have to draft the guy who leads them to the next level, it certainly increases the odds if you are drafting higher.


Ninerballin

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Reply #33 on: July 22, 2011, 07:22:45 pm
Seems they've thrown everything towards winning the lottery pick next season and hopefully signing a high end free agent(Dwight Howard, etc).  If they are able to get a Durant or Lebron James type in the lottery next season and sign a Dwight Howard type, they will look like geniuses.  But it seems like a high gamble.
They have zero chance at landing a marquee free agent, just isn't going to happen unless the CBA changes things so that only teams with "Bob" in their name can sign Dwight Howard.

But you actually nailed it, the way you win the NBA is through the draft.  You can be very bad and get a high pick in a good draft (see Orlando, Miami, Portland x3, OKC, etc..) or you can luck into a star (LAL, Dallas).  The financial situation makes it nearly impossible to build any other way, you have to have a young, cheap superstar and fill in the pieces around him well enough to convince him to stick around for a second and third contract.

How many teams to win championships in the past 10 years did so with a best player that they didn't get through the draft?  The first 2 Lakers wins with Shaq maybe, anybody else?  That Pistons team maybe, depending on who you want their best player to be.

Anyway, the point is that I agree with the Bobcats rebuilding,  history tells us they are going to have to draft the guy who leads them to the next level, it certainly increases the odds if you are drafting higher.


I tend to agree, but we have a  decent shot at landing CP3.


I could also argue Boston, due to the fact that FA's and trades turned them into a championship franchise.  Obviously you HAVE to build through the draft, and it's the luck of the draw most of the time.  For instance, Emeka Okafor vs. Dwight Howard (#1 and #2 picks).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 07:25:47 pm by Ninerballin »


CMack124

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Reply #34 on: July 23, 2011, 01:43:38 pm
I tend to agree, but we have a  decent shot at landing CP3.


I could also argue Boston, due to the fact that FA's and trades turned them into a championship franchise.  Obviously you HAVE to build through the draft, and it's the luck of the draw most of the time.  For instance, Emeka Okafor vs. Dwight Howard (#1 and #2 picks).
YOu're probably right about CP3, I doubt he ends up here, but they probably do have a shot.

Boston still needed Piece and Rondo to win, but you're right, it is a good example where they got over the top without drafting guys, Kevin McHale handed them KG.

You do need a lot of lucky as seen by the multiple teams who are in the lottery just about every year yet never strike gold with their draft picks, but at least if you're in the lottery you have a chance, the teams hanging around the 8 or 7 seed in the playoffs are in no-man's land, they aren't going to get out of the first round and they aren't going to find the franchise-turning player in the draft.

Next year might be a pretty good one to have a top pick, Barnes, the Kentucky freshman and potentially Drummond, pretty strong at the top.


Normmm

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Reply #35 on: July 26, 2011, 03:03:11 pm
Seems they've thrown everything towards winning the lottery pick next season and hopefully signing a high end free agent(Dwight Howard, etc).  If they are able to get a Durant or Lebron James type in the lottery next season and sign a Dwight Howard type, they will look like geniuses.  But it seems like a high gamble.

They have zero chance at landing a marquee free agent, just isn't going to happen unless the CBA changes things so that only teams with "Bob" in their name can sign Dwight Howard.


What makes you say that?  Because you don't think a marquee free agent will come to Charlotte?  If so, you may be right.  But if it's salary reasons, there's no reason they can't do it.  Boston landed Garnet.  Atlanta landed Johnson.  Miami landed James.  GS landed Lee.  Phoenix landed Nash.  Chicago landed Boozer.  NY landed Anthony.  Nets landed Williams.

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


Normmm

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Reply #36 on: July 26, 2011, 03:31:46 pm
I just looked at every draft since 1990.  Only 5 top 10 picks have won a championship with the team that drafted them.  That's out of roughly 200 top 10 picks, or a 2% success rate.  Tim Duncan is the only over all #1 to have done it.

Andrew Bynum - 10th - 2005
Dwayne Wade - 5th - 2003
Paul Pierce - 10th - 1998
Tim Duncan - 1st - 1997
Lindsey Hunter - 10th - 1993


I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


Nugget

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Reply #37 on: July 26, 2011, 05:00:07 pm
I just looked at every draft since 1990.  Only 5 top 10 picks have won a championship with the team that drafted them.  That's out of roughly 200 top 10 picks, or a 2% success rate.  Tim Duncan is the only over all #1 to have done it.

Andrew Bynum - 10th - 2005
Dwayne Wade - 5th - 2003
Paul Pierce - 10th - 1998
Tim Duncan - 1st - 1997
Lindsey Hunter - 10th - 1993
Every time I see something like this I think about the book Moneyball, and the theory that everyone in sports track and value the wrong stats.  It seems like there should be an opportunity for mid-major schools that were willing to embrace the concept to recruit and beat the big-boys, it's just that coaches don't have the guts to buck the system.  Too bad.
#unc-CHeatingPays


CMack124

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Reply #38 on: July 26, 2011, 09:35:39 pm
I just looked at every draft since 1990.  Only 5 top 10 picks have won a championship with the team that drafted them.  That's out of roughly 200 top 10 picks, or a 2% success rate.  Tim Duncan is the only over all #1 to have done it.

Andrew Bynum - 10th - 2005
Dwayne Wade - 5th - 2003
Paul Pierce - 10th - 1998
Tim Duncan - 1st - 1997
Lindsey Hunter - 10th - 1993
Look over the same time period, how many teams won championships with their best playing being a guy they didn't acquire through the draft? 

-The first two Laker teams with Shaq
-Maybe the Pistons team, depending who you want to say their best player was
-Maybe the Celtics if you want to say KG was their best player.

That's maybe 4 out of the last 21 championship winning teams, not great odds.

And of all the teams you listed who landed big players not through the draft, only James and Boozer are on championship contending teams and Boozer isn't anywhere close to the best player on his team.  Everyone can agree that the LBJ situation was quite unique.

My point is:  If you want to win an NBA championship you almost certainly have to acquire your best player through the draft.  I think this holds up over the past 20 years.  Maybe you get lucky and draft Kobe in the teens (or get even luckier and somebody trades you the pick), but the bottom line is you almost have to get your best player through the draft if you want to be a legitimate contender and actually win.


mightymitchfan

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Reply #39 on: July 26, 2011, 09:52:33 pm
Maybe you get lucky and draft Kobe in the teens (or get even luckier and somebody trades you the pick)


For Vlade f***ing Divac.  >:(


CharSFNiners

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Reply #40 on: July 27, 2011, 08:53:57 am
Maybe you get lucky and draft Kobe in the teens (or get even luckier and somebody trades you the pick)


For Vlade f***ing Divac.  >:(


To be fair, that was set up beforehand and he had told the Hornets he had no interest in playing for them.


NinerWupAss

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Reply #41 on: July 27, 2011, 09:11:00 am
Maybe you get lucky and draft Kobe in the teens (or get even luckier and somebody trades you the pick)


For Vlade f***ing Divac.  >:(


To be fair, that was set up beforehand and he had told the Hornets he had no interest in playing for them.

I still call bs on that! Imo he would have played he was bluffing. But no one the hornets could have been sure.
Mahna Mahna


Normmm

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Reply #42 on: July 27, 2011, 10:55:02 am
I just looked at every draft since 1990.  Only 5 top 10 picks have won a championship with the team that drafted them.  That's out of roughly 200 top 10 picks, or a 2% success rate.  Tim Duncan is the only over all #1 to have done it.

Andrew Bynum - 10th - 2005
Dwayne Wade - 5th - 2003
Paul Pierce - 10th - 1998
Tim Duncan - 1st - 1997
Lindsey Hunter - 10th - 1993
Look over the same time period, how many teams won championships with their best playing being a guy they didn't acquire through the draft? 

-The first two Laker teams with Shaq
-Maybe the Pistons team, depending who you want to say their best player was
-Maybe the Celtics if you want to say KG was their best player.

That's maybe 4 out of the last 21 championship winning teams, not great odds.

And of all the teams you listed who landed big players not through the draft, only James and Boozer are on championship contending teams and Boozer isn't anywhere close to the best player on his team.  Everyone can agree that the LBJ situation was quite unique.

My point is:  If you want to win an NBA championship you almost certainly have to acquire your best player through the draft.  I think this holds up over the past 20 years.  Maybe you get lucky and draft Kobe in the teens (or get even luckier and somebody trades you the pick), but the bottom line is you almost have to get your best player through the draft if you want to be a legitimate contender and actually win.

I never said abandon the draft.  You pointed out that most of the championship teams obtained their best player in the draft.  That doesn't really prove anything.  Every team in the league obtained their best player in the draft.   

Just pointing out that planning around a lottery pick may not be the best solution.  Certainly not the only solution.  I'd say in that same time frame (1990-2010) that only 2 championship teams happened from drafting that franchise player to build a team around, Duncan and Wade.

If the Bobcats are going to be successful they're going to have to bring in quality FAs too.  I wasn't saying Boozer was the best player in Chicago.  Or that Atlanta was a championship contending team.  Just saying that other teams have been able to land marquee FAs.

 

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


Universal

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Reply #43 on: July 27, 2011, 11:27:21 am
Also during the same time frame (1990-2010) Phil Jackson won the NBA championship 11 times.

Maybe we just need a good coach?
“All that is best in the great poets of all countries is not what is national in them, but what is universal”


Powerbait

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Reply #44 on: July 27, 2011, 11:50:05 am
You don't build a championship team through the draft in the NBA.  You get your best player, sure, but one player never wins a title.  You have to augment your team with high caliber free agents. 
 
Dwade won a title, sure, but he had Shaq there too.
Kobe was drafted by the Lakers, but Pau wasn't, neither was Shaq.
Of the title team for the Mavs this year, well, they only had TWO players from the team that went to the title game 5 years ago.  TWO.
Celtics?  Paul Pierce was drafted, but Ray Allen and KG sure weren't. 
Scottie Pippen?  Drafted by the Sonics.
 
Now, the Spurs did very well with building a team through the draft.  Manu Ginobili might be the best second round pick of all time.   But getting Duncan was luck beyond luck.  Robinson got hurt, they barely miss the playoffs and win the Draft Lottery.   It is very rare a team gets two superstars via the draft.  And when they do, those teams are dominant. 


Powerbait

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Reply #45 on: July 27, 2011, 11:51:16 am
I never said abandon the draft.  You pointed out that most of the championship teams obtained their best player in the draft.  That doesn't really prove anything.  Every team in the league obtained their best player in the draft.   

Other than the heat, I agree.


CharSFNiners

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Reply #46 on: July 27, 2011, 12:30:28 pm
You don't build a championship team through the draft in the NBA.  You get your best player, sure, but one player never wins a title.  You have to augment your team with high caliber free agents. 
 
Dwade won a title, sure, but he had Shaq there too.
Kobe was drafted by the Lakers, but Pau wasn't, neither was Shaq.
Of the title team for the Mavs this year, well, they only had TWO players from the team that went to the title game 5 years ago.  TWO.
Celtics?  Paul Pierce was drafted, but Ray Allen and KG sure weren't. 
Scottie Pippen?  Drafted by the Sonics.
 
Now, the Spurs did very well with building a team through the draft.  Manu Ginobili might be the best second round pick of all time.   But getting Duncan was luck beyond luck.  Robinson got hurt, they barely miss the playoffs and win the Draft Lottery.   It is very rare a team gets two superstars via the draft.  And when they do, those teams are dominant.


If you're going to count Kobe as drafted by the Lakers then you have to count Pippen as drafted by the Bulls.


CMack124

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Reply #47 on: July 27, 2011, 03:18:06 pm
I agree PB, you don't win solely through the draft but you have to start there.  If you don't get a superstar through the draft you can't land the quality free agents who fill out the championship caliber roster (well, you probably can but you overpay and still don't win enough).  You absolutely need both, but I think it has to start through the draft which is the point I am trying, and apparently failing, to make.

Going back to the original topic, the Bobcats need to get a draft pick right, they have made some awful picks and had bad luck with high picks in bad drafts, I think they will continue to be a poor team until they hit a home run with one of their picks.  They have to start building through the draft and then bring in the help later through FA, no point in hanging onto guys like Wallace and Jackson without a star player for them to compliment.


Normmm

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Reply #48 on: July 27, 2011, 03:55:52 pm
CMack, I agree with you for the most part.  My point is that they traded  Wallace for Bismack and another pick next year.  But that pick will probably be in the 20-30 range.  Then they traded Jackson for Maggette.  Neither of those transactions scream upgrade to me.

Then by trading both Jackson and Wallace, they've clearly bailed on the 2011-2012 season in hopes of getting a very high draft pick.  Which I don't think there's a really high level lottery pick next year.  If 2012 had a Dwight Howard or Lebron James type player at the top of the draft, that would be a different story. 

Also was curious why you thought there's no way Charlotte would get a marquee FA.

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


CMack124

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Reply #49 on: July 27, 2011, 05:17:49 pm
I think next year's draft will be a lot better than this, Barnes and the Kentucky freshmen (assuming he lives up to the hype) could be very, very good.  Plus Drummond, if he can get eligible for it, could be the best of them all.  I'd hate for them to end up with a Sullinger-type guy, he can be good but probably won't ever dominate.

I don't see Charlotte landing a big time FA because no big time FA is going to go for the complete money grab.  They will want to go somewhere with some kind of base for building a winning team.  I don't see Charlotte as that place right now.  What do they really have in Augustine and Kemba?  Two role players?  Two stars?  Who knows.  Howard isn't going to sign with the Nets if Deron Williams isn't there, he won't go sign with a bottom-tier team just because they can offer him money, he's going to find a team with a good core of talent and go there trying to win a championship.  I don't see that in Charlotte now and I don't see them building that in the next 2 or 3 years.  I think (or maybe hope) that MJ will spend the money to sign big time FAs, but I don't think there will be mutual interest anytime soon.


 

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