Author Topic: Sad to watch...  (Read 32438 times)

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9erken

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Reply #50 on: March 08, 2012, 09:49:18 pm
My argument is that a complete outsider rebuilding an organization from scratch with no head coaching background is mostly unheard of at the higher levels of college basketball. 
It might depend on what you mean by rebuilding from scratch. Archie Miller at Dayton comes to mind, is that rebuilding from scratch? Not sure he's a good coach yet, but had a pretty good first year.

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It's amazing to me that a Duquesne can hire a low level HC like Everhart or a La Salle can hire a low level HC like Giannini or a Fordham can hire a very successful CAA HC in Pecora.  Same thing with George Washington hiring a Mike Lornegan who had a really good Vermont HC tenure.  All guys who were supposed to rebuild struggling programs in a relatively competitive atmosphere.
The problem I have with this is that none of these guys has yet shown that they are successful at their respective programs yet. I guess you could argue that Everhart, Giannini, and Pecora have tougher jobs to be successful at those places. Everhart came into a huge disaster with the Duquesne shootings, but hasn't done much since. None of them has even sniffed the NIT yet with their new teams. Lonergan just had a year similar to Major's first, given the talent he had on the roster (expected to be top 6 in the A10 at least). I think Pecora and Lonergan may eventually be successful, but will take their lumps for a few years. Everhart and Giannini are not great examples of what hiring a head coach can do for you, they have made many mistakes. Giannini was on the hot seat to be fired this year, and seems to have saved his job by getting the team to middle of the A10 pack.

I think I get what you are saying, head coaches at least have organizational experience which could help with transitions. But I think these can be risky even when the former team has some moderate success.


Niner National

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Reply #51 on: March 08, 2012, 10:03:26 pm
Everhart made the NIT in 2008-2009 at Duquesne 9erken.


9erken

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Reply #52 on: March 08, 2012, 10:08:35 pm
Everhart made the NIT in 2008-2009 at Duquesne 9erken.
Whoops, my bad. Ok, he sniffed the NIT. Not sure how much it changes my point, but sorry for the error. I thought that was another CBI year for them.


Niner National

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Reply #53 on: March 08, 2012, 10:19:20 pm
Everhart made the NIT in 2008-2009 at Duquesne 9erken.
Whoops, my bad. Ok, he sniffed the NIT. Not sure how much it changes my point, but sorry for the error. I thought that was another CBI year for them.
Nah. You're right though, it doesn't change your point. The NIT is hardly what we, or any other A10 team should be using as a measuring stick for success.


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Reply #54 on: March 08, 2012, 10:40:44 pm
You don't (typically) promote an assistant from a staff, when a team has sucked or been mediocre. I can't think of many times this happens, other than when you fire a coach in season and have an assistant step in who does well.


49erDrummer

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Reply #55 on: March 08, 2012, 11:16:41 pm
I believe some of our fans think that there is a list out there of available coaches who will work for $500k, win 23 games, and make it to the second round of the NCAAs annually, but Judy refuses to look at it.  If this list existed 9 ACC schools would be hiring new coaches as we speak--but it doesn't.
 
We have to take chances when we hire a coach.  That is where we are in the food chain.  Luckily our record is pretty good and we benefit from those undervalued coaches until one of the predator schools decides they will just buy the coach away from us.  There is nothing we can do to change this.
 
Sometimes you have to just decide you are a Niners fan and work through the lean years without soiling your pants.  If you cannot do that, if you feel that you must win every year, then all I can suggest is that you go to Walmart and buy a Tarheel shirt like the thousands of others just like you. 
 
For me, while this year was another tough one it is going to be a lot of fun when we do play ourselves into a conference tournament bye again.  Maybe it is because I started out with Pratt and Wissell that I enjoyed Mullins and Watkins so much.  If Major turns this around it is going to be a lot more fun to watch than seeing the Tarheels thump Wake Forest...again.  I am willing to take the chance, but if you cannot stomach the ride, get off.

This thread should have ended with this post. Period. 


Spot-on.


hky49er

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Reply #56 on: March 09, 2012, 08:17:54 am
I believe some of our fans think that there is a list out there of available coaches who will work for $500k, win 23 games, and make it to the second round of the NCAAs annually, but Judy refuses to look at it.  If this list existed 9 ACC schools would be hiring new coaches as we speak--but it doesn't.
 
We have to take chances when we hire a coach.  That is where we are in the food chain.  Luckily our record is pretty good and we benefit from those undervalued coaches until one of the predator schools decides they will just buy the coach away from us. There is nothing we can do to change this. 
 
Sometimes you have to just decide you are a Niners fan and work through the lean years without soiling your pants.  If you cannot do that, if you feel that you must win every year, then all I can suggest is that you go to Walmart and buy a Tarheel shirt like the thousands of others just like you. 
 
For me, while this year was another tough one it is going to be a lot of fun when we do play ourselves into a conference tournament bye again.  Maybe it is because I started out with Pratt and Wissell that I enjoyed Mullins and Watkins so much.  If Major turns this around it is going to be a lot more fun to watch than seeing the Tarheels thump Wake Forest...again.  I am willing to take the chance, but if you cannot stomach the ride, get off.
This thread should have ended with this post. Period. 


Spot-on.
So the thread is ended by saying we should accept mediocrity because there are no decent coaches that we can afford willing to work for our progam. I'm certainly glad our players don't enter games with that pessimistic mentality. By the way we have had only 4 losing seasons in the last 24 years before Major.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 08:28:31 am by hky49er »


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Reply #57 on: March 09, 2012, 08:26:48 am
I believe some of our fans think that there is a list out there of available coaches who will work for $500k, win 23 games, and make it to the second round of the NCAAs annually, but Judy refuses to look at it.  If this list existed 9 ACC schools would be hiring new coaches as we speak--but it doesn't.
 
We have to take chances when we hire a coach.  That is where we are in the food chain.  Luckily our record is pretty good and we benefit from those undervalued coaches until one of the predator schools decides they will just buy the coach away from us.  There is nothing we can do to change this.
 
Sometimes you have to just decide you are a Niners fan and work through the lean years without soiling your pants.  If you cannot do that, if you feel that you must win every year, then all I can suggest is that you go to Walmart and buy a Tarheel shirt like the thousands of others just like you. 
 
For me, while this year was another tough one it is going to be a lot of fun when we do play ourselves into a conference tournament bye again.  Maybe it is because I started out with Pratt and Wissell that I enjoyed Mullins and Watkins so much.  If Major turns this around it is going to be a lot more fun to watch than seeing the Tarheels thump Wake Forest...again.  I am willing to take the chance, but if you cannot stomach the ride, get off.
This thread should have ended with this post. Period. 


Spot-on.
So the thread is ended by saying we should accept mediocrity because there are no decent coaches that we can afford willing to work for our progam. I'm certainly glad our players don't enter games with that mentality.

That is not what that post says to me. 

Two words:  REALISTIC. EXPECTATIONS.

Seriously, this is the college sports landscape in which we reside.  It hurts, but the sooner everyone realizes that we have a long road back to relevance, the easier the ride will be.

What has happened the last two seasons has been unacceptable, and I'm leaning towards Major probably not being the right decision at this point.  But this is our coach, this is our program, and for me, he gets 1 more year to show us that we are headed in the right direction.  The program is at its lowest point since the mid 80's.  Does anybody think we are going to turn the ship completely around in 2 or 3 seasons?  If so, you might want to find a good psychiatrist.


49erDrummer

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Reply #58 on: March 09, 2012, 08:35:54 am
Exactly. We've fallen far enough out of relevance on the national level that it's going to take more than a year or two to right the ship in all likelihood.  Does that mean Major is/isn't the guy for the job? I personally don't have an answer for that.  I certainly HOPE he turns out to be that guy, but I'll definitely say I'm not sold on it myself...and if we don't see some serious strides by year three, I'll most likely jump right in line with those calling for a change.

Bottom line, though:  There is no "fix-it" button that we can press. There is no singular change to be made that will get us back to the NCAA's and to overall relevance overnight. If there was, I'm pretty damn sure that somebody over in the front office would be pushing that button until it breaks.  It's going to be a process. A long, arduous, frustrating process.  And I'll be around for it, even if it makes me want to gouge out my eyes for the majority of the year.


hky49er

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Reply #59 on: March 09, 2012, 08:53:00 am
I believe some of our fans think that there is a list out there of available coaches who will work for $500k, win 23 games, and make it to the second round of the NCAAs annually, but Judy refuses to look at it.  If this list existed 9 ACC schools would be hiring new coaches as we speak--but it doesn't.
 
We have to take chances when we hire a coach.  That is where we are in the food chain.  Luckily our record is pretty good and we benefit from those undervalued coaches until one of the predator schools decides they will just buy the coach away from us.  There is nothing we can do to change this.
 
Sometimes you have to just decide you are a Niners fan and work through the lean years without soiling your pants.  If you cannot do that, if you feel that you must win every year, then all I can suggest is that you go to Walmart and buy a Tarheel shirt like the thousands of others just like you. 
 
For me, while this year was another tough one it is going to be a lot of fun when we do play ourselves into a conference tournament bye again.  Maybe it is because I started out with Pratt and Wissell that I enjoyed Mullins and Watkins so much.  If Major turns this around it is going to be a lot more fun to watch than seeing the Tarheels thump Wake Forest...again.  I am willing to take the chance, but if you cannot stomach the ride, get off.
This thread should have ended with this post. Period. 


Spot-on.
So the thread is ended by saying we should accept mediocrity because there are no decent coaches that we can afford willing to work for our progam. I'm certainly glad our players don't enter games with that mentality.

That is not what that post says to me. 

Two words:  REALISTIC. EXPECTATIONS.

Seriously, this is the college sports landscape in which we reside.  It hurts, but the sooner everyone realizes that we have a long road back to relevance, the easier the ride will be.

What has happened the last two seasons has been unacceptable, and I'm leaning towards Major probably not being the right decision at this point.  But this is our coach, this is our program, and for me, he gets 1 more year to show us that we are headed in the right direction.  The program is at its lowest point since the mid 80's.  Does anybody think we are going to turn the ship completely around in 2 or 3 seasons?  If so, you might want to find a good psychiatrist.
    Our fan base does not accept mediocrity. We have only had 4 losing seasons in the last 24 years before Major. If it's going to take several more years to turn it around, it will be disaster for years after because the fan base & money will be dried up by then. We have already lost many of our fan base that had been with us for years. I have heard discussions by many large donors that are very unhappy & discussing backing off their giving & buying season tickets.You think we don't have the money to hire a good coach now, what if we lose more donors? You need only look at people walking out of games & our attendance this year to see the fallout & the beginning of an avalanche as happened during Wissel..   
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 09:05:51 am by hky49er »


49RFootballNow

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Reply #60 on: March 09, 2012, 11:20:36 am
You have heard discussions by many "large" donors? Please feel free to name these fat donors.


stonecoldken

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Reply #61 on: March 09, 2012, 11:28:47 am
Large donors don't like their names used.
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Reply #62 on: March 09, 2012, 12:18:26 pm
Large donors don't like their names used.

I seriously doubt he knows any of our large donors and fewer that would discuss the current situation with him.


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Reply #63 on: March 09, 2012, 07:32:18 pm
Stranger things have happened - wouldn't suprise me if Lutz didn't get a call if AM is a bust.  A package deal with Mox would be required though.


Pluto will be colonized before Lutz ever coaches here again.
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Reply #64 on: March 09, 2012, 08:13:14 pm
What about athletic director?
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Reply #65 on: March 09, 2012, 10:19:00 pm
Lutz wouldn't think about coming here until Dubois is gone.  I think Lutz could be a very good AD.  You know his heart would be in it.


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Reply #66 on: March 09, 2012, 10:23:40 pm
Not a chance Judy would let Lutz come back nor would he come.
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Reply #67 on: March 09, 2012, 10:36:47 pm
I'll clarify, Lutz will never coach here again, but he could become our AD one day.


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Reply #68 on: March 10, 2012, 12:35:06 am
When I saw the title of the thread I thought it would link to a hidden camera in my one bedroom apartment populated only be me...

C-Pip's right.  About EVERYTHING.

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hky49er

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Reply #69 on: March 10, 2012, 08:09:57 am
Large donors don't like their names used.

I seriously doubt he knows any of our large donors and fewer that would discuss the current situation with him.
Obviously you do not know me. And certainly you do not know with whom I discuss the state of our men's basketball program. I do not appreciate your insinuation that I am lying. I take pride in my honesty. For your infomation, I have supported our sports programs for many years physically & financially & as a result have developed many friendships that are, yes to your query, large donors to our sports program.The room in which I have dinner before each game is filled with people who have made & do make substantial yearly contributions to our program. And yes they do talk to me, & naturally all of them are concerned about the future of our men's basketball program. Many have been supporters for years & remember the state of our program in Conference USA & trips to tournaments on a regular basis. Some like me are very disapointed about how far our program has fallen from those years & feel we are  not making progress toward returning to that level. Naturally I would never use names but I assure you they are people with which we do not want to lose their financial & or physical support. However there are some like me that are not shy about people knowing who they are or how they feel. I thought by coming on this site I might have a civil & intellectual discussion about the state of our mens basketball program with other supporters to find out their view. I was wrong on so many levels! I shall leave this forum & discussion to those who seem to only want participants that agree with them.


Chisox17

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Reply #70 on: March 10, 2012, 08:26:05 am
I thought by coming on this site I might have a civil & intellectual discussion about the state of our mens basketball program with other supporters to find out their view. I was wrong on so many levels! I shall leave this forum & discussion to those who seem to only want participants that agree with them.


Oh shalllllll you?  Us commoners would be soooo uncivilized without your refined presence on the board. 






lol, just kidding hky.  I hope you stick around.  :D   


In all honesty I do fear we will lose major financial backers if this circus that is our hoops program continues to flounder for even one more year.  Hell I'm sure we lost plenty already. 
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Reply #71 on: March 10, 2012, 11:20:38 am
I believe some of our fans think that there is a list out there of available coaches who will work for $500k, win 23 games, and make it to the second round of the NCAAs annually, but Judy refuses to look at it.  If this list existed 9 ACC schools would be hiring new coaches as we speak--but it doesn't.
 
We have to take chances when we hire a coach.  That is where we are in the food chain.  Luckily our record is pretty good and we benefit from those undervalued coaches until one of the predator schools decides they will just buy the coach away from us. There is nothing we can do to change this. 
 
Sometimes you have to just decide you are a Niners fan and work through the lean years without soiling your pants.  If you cannot do that, if you feel that you must win every year, then all I can suggest is that you go to Walmart and buy a Tarheel shirt like the thousands of others just like you. 
 
For me, while this year was another tough one it is going to be a lot of fun when we do play ourselves into a conference tournament bye again.  Maybe it is because I started out with Pratt and Wissell that I enjoyed Mullins and Watkins so much.  If Major turns this around it is going to be a lot more fun to watch than seeing the Tarheels thump Wake Forest...again.  I am willing to take the chance, but if you cannot stomach the ride, get off.
This thread should have ended with this post. Period. 


Spot-on.
So the thread is ended by saying we should accept mediocrity because there are no decent coaches that we can afford willing to work for our progam. I'm certainly glad our players don't enter games with that pessimistic mentality. By the way we have had only 4 losing seasons in the last 24 years before Major.
Uh, no.   Jamie Greene didn't bring us mediocrity.  Jeremy Gunn didn't bring us mediocrity.  Add Jeff Mullins, Amanda Butler, Loren Hibbs, and many, many of our other coaches to the list.  We have a pretty good track record of finding coaches that will be successful and enabling them.  What I am saying is that it would be easy to say "We need a soccer coach, let's call that Jeremy Gunn fellow and open our bottomless checkbook", but we don't have one.  We hired Gunn before that is what it took.  Our coaching hires are usually a risk because we do not accept mediocrity.  It would be easy to hire mediocre coaches with our budget, but we try to find someone that can exceed expectations.  What I am saying is that it is not an exact science.  We will not always get it right and sometimes you may have to wait to see what the outcome is.  This is how our program has to work for now.  Help us build that bottomless checkbook and we can change our approach.
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Charlotte2002

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Reply #72 on: March 10, 2012, 01:53:48 pm
Large donors don't like their names used.

I seriously doubt he knows any of our large donors and fewer that would discuss the current situation with him.
I thought by coming on this site I might have a civil & intellectual discussion about the state of our mens basketball program with other supporters to find out their view. I was wrong on so many levels! I shall leave this forum & discussion to those who seem to only want participants that agree with them.

Why is it every time long-time contributors to the board don't agree with a newcomer the newcomer always claim the long-time posters only want to discuss things with people they agree with.  Aren't you then asking for the same thing?

It is a message board, people aren't supposed to all agree.  Just because you can't convince others to change to your opinion doesn't mean the board is uncivil.

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49RFootballNow

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Reply #73 on: March 10, 2012, 03:22:31 pm
Large donors don't like their names used.

I seriously doubt he knows any of our large donors and fewer that would discuss the current situation with him.
Obviously you do not know me. And certainly you do not know with whom I discuss the state of our men's basketball program. I do not appreciate your insinuation that I am lying. I take pride in my honesty. For your infomation, I have supported our sports programs for many years physically & financially & as a result have developed many friendships that are, yes to your query, large donors to our sports program.The room in which I have dinner before each game is filled with people who have made & do make substantial yearly contributions to our program. And yes they do talk to me, & naturally all of them are concerned about the future of our men's basketball program. Many have been supporters for years & remember the state of our program in Conference USA & trips to tournaments on a regular basis. Some like me are very disapointed about how far our program has fallen from those years & feel we are  not making progress toward returning to that level. Naturally I would never use names but I assure you they are people with which we do not want to lose their financial & or physical support. However there are some like me that are not shy about people knowing who they are or how they feel. I thought by coming on this site I might have a civil & intellectual discussion about the state of our mens basketball program with other supporters to find out their view. I was wrong on so many levels! I shall leave this forum & discussion to those who seem to only want participants that agree with them.

We're happy to have you on the board and I'm sure I speak for everyone on that point.


but


Don't insinuate something you can't prove, and no one will insinuate that you're not being honest. If you do know lots of big donors who are ready to revolt against Judy, but you can't name them, THEN DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT, and no one will accuse you of being an attention whore. I've been given "inside" information before; but I didn't come over here and scream "I know something you don't know". I kept my mouth shut and waited for the news to come out. If you don't like what Judy's doing, and these big donors don't like what Judy's doing, then go talk to them and get it done; don't come here cause we've spent our capital getting football.


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Reply #74 on: March 10, 2012, 06:30:38 pm
If you hang your hat on sports nobody cares about, you probably have shitty real sports.
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