Author Topic: Hornets playoffs  (Read 17349 times)

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ninerball49

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Reply #100 on: May 04, 2016, 12:32:43 pm

So we give up Al, Lee, Marvin (30-35 points per game) and add MKG (15 points per game)....so we have to make up 20 points. I guess Kemba can shoot 20 more shots and we got it. What I am saying is we have 5 of the top 40 free agents this year (Batum, Lin, Al, Marvin, Lee). All played significant roles in the rotation when healthy. When you don't have a superstar, which we don't, that is a significant impediment.


Well they arent going to let 3 guys walk and not replace them.  My point is that their production is replaceable.  Its not a coincidence that this team played lights out around the same time Al was out and or moved to the bench.


 I just cant imagine watching this team all year and believing that Jefferson and Williams were the motor that made things go.


Exactly.  They played well and made great contributions, but you can fill any capable, cheaper players into those roles a la what the Panthers do around Kuechly/Davis and the strong D line on their defense (any stretch 4 who can shoot and defend for Marvin, sub MKG for Lee, and with Al you can't really mathematically throw around his PPG not considering the fact that they have to *try to* hide him on every defensive possession).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 12:47:05 pm by ninerball49 »
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sportsman1417

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Reply #101 on: May 04, 2016, 01:06:29 pm
I assume you meant "rational."  Moving on, I'm not sure what you mean by "top flight" starting line up.  You mean like, top flight in the regard that they could consistently finish 3-5 in the East?  Because they've done that with a lot of injury trouble.  I realize Miami was missing Bosh but realistically they became a way worse matchup for Charlotte without him when they used Deng and a much smaller lineup.  I personally think that was worse for the Hornets in the end.  In any regard, you can't just say 'another team dealt with an injury' like all of them were the same.  The Heat exploded after losing Bosh because they changed their style of play when he went out.  We owe our success to Batum and lost him right with all of our momentum.  Two monumentally different scenarios.  The MKG injury we have dealt with and is more similar seeing as how the Hornets have been adjusting to that all year.  However, the impact is still huge.


"The Hornets outscored their opposition by 73 total points in the nearly 1,600 minutes Kidd-Gilchrist played last year, an average of 3.1 points per 100 possessions, according to NBA.com's stat tool. When MKG was off the court, though, Charlotte got outscored by a whopping 333 points in just under 2,400 minutes, an average of 7.7 points-per-100. In effect, then, having MKG in the lineup was the difference between the Hornets performing like the 55-win Memphis Grizzlies and the worst-season-in-franchise-history Los Angeles Lakers."


When people compare MKG to GW or just say "he can't shoot, the end" that's not quite even the beginning of the story of what he provides to the team.  Either way, I think if the end of the day question you're asking is if the guys in that lineup can consistently perform at the level they did to be towards the top of the East this year with a lot of injury troubles, I think the answer has been proved yes...that's what we're talking about here, right?  You said the 5th seed, tied for the 3rd best record in the East, is the 12th-15th best team in that conference.  Why I argued against that point when all I should have done was linked the standings, I have no idea.  Alas, here we are.  I think they're the 4th best team in the conference.  Aside from Cavs, Heat and Hawks I don't think they would have had a problem beating any other team (or at least going to 7) against anyone else in the East...even given the injury troubles they had.  Does that equate to 12-15th best in the conference for....anyone?


I was informed in the shout box I mistyped. I meant bottom 4 of playoff teams. I think somewhere I said middle of the road is not where you want to be. No I didn't read what you posted. I only like the real MC Hammer.




Normmm

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Reply #102 on: May 04, 2016, 01:53:21 pm
Sportsman1417, I'm not sure I can tell what your real issue with the Hornets is.  Is it that they need to draft better?  Is it that Management has done a good enough job of attracting FA's?  Poor coaching?


I tend to slightly agree with you about Kemba, in regards to him not being a Superstar.  But I don't hold that against Kemba or feel the need to bash him.  By everything I've seen, the guy works his ass off on the court.


It seems to me that the Hornets/Bobcats have mostly had bad luck with the draft.  We've just a been a couple of spots away from landing that Superstar.  One spot in the case of Anthony Davis.


I suppose in the case of Kemba in the draft, you can play revisionist history and say they should have drafted Klay Thompson or Jimmy Butler.  Kemba's draft position was 9th.  Usually you're not planning on building your franchise around the 9th pick.  Considering that perspective, I think they've gotten a pretty good return on their investment.


With MKG, I too agree he probably won't be a superstar.  But that draft sucked overall.  I don't think any of teh players drafted after MKG are the type of Superstar you refer to.


With Zeller, I might have been inclined to take Noel.  But he had the knee injury concerns.  So he did seem like a risk and the 76ers have nothing with him.  So he wouldn't be that Superstar answer either.


Now if you want to criticize the Biyombo pick, I'm right there with you.  But I think you're off on criticizing Kemba and MKG.


Hopefully they'll get lucky and find a Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler in a future draft!

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


s9er

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Reply #103 on: May 04, 2016, 03:00:16 pm
I have huge problems with the teams drafting.. They just aren't any good at it.

2015 - Kaminsky: Couldn't keep up with shadow on a cloudless day. Offensively he was not good. Its early, but even if Boston was presenting half the future #'1 that were reported, should have made the trade. HE was superfluous to Zeller..
2014- Vohleh- Didn't understand this pick with Zeller already here.  PJ Hairston was a turd..
2013- Zeller- He's been here long enough to call a flop as the #4 pick in the draft. Passed on Noel, Caldwell Pope, McCollum, Adams etc..
2012- MKG- Got hosed by the lottery.. Passed on Beal, Brnes, Drummond, Lillard for a guy who had ZERO offensive skill. I like MKG, but the #2 pick in the draft can't be a total offensive project (that we still don't know if he has any game on that side of the floor).. Not to mention the guy just can't stay healthy.  You can't really give this pick a good grade if you are looking at it objectively.
2011- KEmba/Bizzzzmack.. Love Kemba but Biz was awful.
2010- Tyrus Thomas.. Nuff said.

The team has done better on trades recently (although taking on Spencer Hawes deal is still puzzling)... . The FA work has really been their best effort


stonecoldken

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Reply #104 on: May 04, 2016, 04:30:57 pm
Sign Hassan Whiteside.  That is all.
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sportsman1417

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Reply #105 on: May 04, 2016, 05:24:51 pm
Sportsman1417, I'm not sure I can tell what your real issue with the Hornets is.  Is it that they need to draft better?  Is it that Management has done a good enough job of attracting FA's?  Poor coaching?


I tend to slightly agree with you about Kemba, in regards to him not being a Superstar.  But I don't hold that against Kemba or feel the need to bash him.  By everything I've seen, the guy works his ass off on the court.


It seems to me that the Hornets/Bobcats have mostly had bad luck with the draft.  We've just a been a couple of spots away from landing that Superstar.  One spot in the case of Anthony Davis.


I suppose in the case of Kemba in the draft, you can play revisionist history and say they should have drafted Klay Thompson or Jimmy Butler.  Kemba's draft position was 9th.  Usually you're not planning on building your franchise around the 9th pick.  Considering that perspective, I think they've gotten a pretty good return on their investment.


With MKG, I too agree he probably won't be a superstar.  But that draft sucked overall.  I don't think any of teh players drafted after MKG are the type of Superstar you refer to.


With Zeller, I might have been inclined to take Noel.  But he had the knee injury concerns.  So he did seem like a risk and the 76ers have nothing with him.  So he wouldn't be that Superstar answer either.


Now if you want to criticize the Biyombo pick, I'm right there with you.  But I think you're off on criticizing Kemba and MKG.


Hopefully they'll get lucky and find a Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler in a future draft!


I feel stating the truth about a player is not criticizing. Everyone seems to think I am shitting on the players. No, I am stating what most would agree with if I brought up another player with similar stats.



Kemba is one of the hardest working players I have ever seen...and his play has risen every year. I just don't think he is a very good point guard. He is small, he shoots a lot (some games very efficiently, some not), and he makes way more than I think he is worth. Hs is very similar to Isaiah Thomas. Both teams do not have a superstar, have to be efficient, crafty, etc....Thomas makes half as much money. My biggest issue is the Kemba extension for what he provides.


Anthony Davis we got absolutely s*** on. I liked the MKG pick and think he is a valuable piece to the team. However, with the way the NBA is played we need offense...which is his shortfall. He has gotten much better, but it still is his weakest spot. He has tremendous hustle and that is why I compared him to Gerald. Gerald was not going to shoot you out of the building but was very good in other areas. Every team needs that guy and he is one of the better ones in the league. But lets not kid ourselves, he is no Kawhi Leonard.


I really don't have a problem with some of our draft picks. I think most of the trades and free agents have been spot on (Recently). All I have said is that IMO the Hornets are not close to a championship caliber team, which is the black hole of the NBA...and I don't think without some serious offensive help they can be that. Clifford has done wonders on the defensive end with big Al.


I think every team in the East except Cleveland would get swept in the finals by GS, SA, and would maybe win one or 2 vs OKC.



Normmm

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Reply #106 on: May 05, 2016, 03:07:11 pm
Sportsman1417, I'm not sure I can tell what your real issue with the Hornets is.  Is it that they need to draft better?  Is it that Management has done a good enough job of attracting FA's?  Poor coaching?


I feel stating the truth about a player is not criticizing. Everyone seems to think I am shitting on the players. No, I am stating what most would agree with if I brought up another player with similar stats.

Kemba is one of the hardest working players I have ever seen...and his play has risen every year. I just don't think he is a very good point guard. He is small, he shoots a lot (some games very efficiently, some not), and he makes way more than I think he is worth. Hs is very similar to Isaiah Thomas. Both teams do not have a superstar, have to be efficient, crafty, etc....Thomas makes half as much money. My biggest issue is the Kemba extension for what he provides.



So Kemba's salary and extension is your real problem.  Fair enough.  I think it might be a little high, but for the most part it's in line with the rest of the league.  It looks like he was the 50th highest paid player for the '15-16 season, and the 1th highest paid PG.  Both of those seem at least in the ballpark to me.


Over the next couple of seasons the salary cap is going to take huge jumps.  Kemba probably won't even be a top 70 salary in the '17-18 season.


Thomas probably needs a better agent.   ;D [size=78%] [/size]

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


Normmm

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Reply #107 on: May 05, 2016, 03:33:31 pm
I have huge problems with the teams drafting.. They just aren't any good at it.

2015 - Kaminsky: Couldn't keep up with shadow on a cloudless day. Offensively he was not good. Its early, but even if Boston was presenting half the future #'1 that were reported, should have made the trade. HE was superfluous to Zeller..
2014- Vohleh- Didn't understand this pick with Zeller already here.  PJ Hairston was a turd..
2013- Zeller- He's been here long enough to call a flop as the #4 pick in the draft. Passed on Noel, Caldwell Pope, McCollum, Adams etc..
2012- MKG- Got hosed by the lottery.. Passed on Beal, Brnes, Drummond, Lillard for a guy who had ZERO offensive skill. I like MKG, but the #2 pick in the draft can't be a total offensive project (that we still don't know if he has any game on that side of the floor).. Not to mention the guy just can't stay healthy.  You can't really give this pick a good grade if you are looking at it objectively.
2011- KEmba/Bizzzzmack.. Love Kemba but Biz was awful.
2010- Tyrus Thomas.. Nuff said.

The team has done better on trades recently (although taking on Spencer Hawes deal is still puzzling)... . The FA work has really been their best effort


I definitely wouldn't say they have done great.  But I think they've been a little more unlucky than bad.


2015- Jury still out for me.
2014- Agree on Vonleh.  But at the same time, when I go back and look, there's not a lot of guys after the 9th pick that make me say, they really missed that guy.  Rather I see 2 higher picks in the lottery, we cold have gotten Randle.
2013- I probably would have taken Noel.  But it was a gamble.  He didn't play his entire rookie season.  Not taking McCollum already having Kemba.  Not sure Adams is any better than Zeller.  Caldwell-Pope looks like the real miss that year.
2012- Barnes could have been the better pick.  But I'm not sure he would live up to the #2 pick expectations either.  He's at beast the 4th best player on his current team.  Not taking Lillard, have Kemba.  Drummond I think is revisionist history.  He's turned out better than anticipated.  In college he only averaged 10ppg and 7rpg.  probably not somebody you take with the #2 over-all pick.
2011-agreed
2010- I forgot about this deal.  Looks like in the long run it turned into Jusuf Nurkic for the Bulls.

I think Normmm was probably right all along, we'll be really good next year.


SteauA

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Reply #108 on: May 05, 2016, 04:03:06 pm
Sportsman1417, I'm not sure I can tell what your real issue with the Hornets is.  Is it that they need to draft better?  Is it that Management has done a good enough job of attracting FA's?  Poor coaching?


I tend to slightly agree with you about Kemba, in regards to him not being a Superstar.  But I don't hold that against Kemba or feel the need to bash him.  By everything I've seen, the guy works his ass off on the court.


It seems to me that the Hornets/Bobcats have mostly had bad luck with the draft.  We've just a been a couple of spots away from landing that Superstar.  One spot in the case of Anthony Davis.


I suppose in the case of Kemba in the draft, you can play revisionist history and say they should have drafted Klay Thompson or Jimmy Butler.  Kemba's draft position was 9th.  Usually you're not planning on building your franchise around the 9th pick.  Considering that perspective, I think they've gotten a pretty good return on their investment.


With MKG, I too agree he probably won't be a superstar.  But that draft sucked overall.  I don't think any of teh players drafted after MKG are the type of Superstar you refer to.


With Zeller, I might have been inclined to take Noel.  But he had the knee injury concerns.  So he did seem like a risk and the 76ers have nothing with him.  So he wouldn't be that Superstar answer either.


Now if you want to criticize the Biyombo pick, I'm right there with you.  But I think you're off on criticizing Kemba and MKG.


Hopefully they'll get lucky and find a Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler in a future draft!


I feel stating the truth about a player is not criticizing. Everyone seems to think I am shitting on the players. No, I am stating what most would agree with if I brought up another player with similar stats.



Kemba is one of the hardest working players I have ever seen...and his play has risen every year. I just don't think he is a very good point guard. He is small, he shoots a lot (some games very efficiently, some not), and he makes way more than I think he is worth. Hs is very similar to Isaiah Thomas. Both teams do not have a superstar, have to be efficient, crafty, etc....Thomas makes half as much money. My biggest issue is the Kemba extension for what he provides.


Anthony Davis we got absolutely s*** on. I liked the MKG pick and think he is a valuable piece to the team. However, with the way the NBA is played we need offense...which is his shortfall. He has gotten much better, but it still is his weakest spot. He has tremendous hustle and that is why I compared him to Gerald. Gerald was not going to shoot you out of the building but was very good in other areas. Every team needs that guy and he is one of the better ones in the league. But lets not kid ourselves, he is no Kawhi Leonard.


I really don't have a problem with some of our draft picks. I think most of the trades and free agents have been spot on (Recently). All I have said is that IMO the Hornets are not close to a championship caliber team, which is the black hole of the NBA...and I don't think without some serious offensive help they can be that. Clifford has done wonders on the defensive end with big Al.


I think every team in the East except Cleveland would get swept in the finals by GS, SA, and would maybe win one or 2 vs OKC.


So really only four teams are championship caliber, the Warriors, the Spurs, the Thunder and Cleveland.  So what you're saying is that the other 26 teams in the NBA are in a black hole?


Interesting, because last I checked they have 16 playoff spots so maybe they just skip straight to the conference finals after the regular season.  Why even bother with all this playoff nonsense if making the playoffs means you are in a black hole.  Seems pointless. 


You're right though, winning 48 games and taking a veteran Heat team to seven games in the first round is definitely the black hole.  I'd much rather be the Sixers or the Lakers.  That's where you really want to be!


sportsman1417

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Reply #109 on: May 05, 2016, 04:29:37 pm
So really only four teams are championship caliber, the Warriors, the Spurs, the Thunder and Cleveland.  So what you're saying is that the other 26 teams in the NBA are in a black hole?


Interesting, because last I checked they have 16 playoff spots so maybe they just skip straight to the conference finals after the regular season.  Why even bother with all this playoff nonsense if making the playoffs means you are in a black hole.  Seems pointless. 


You're right though, winning 48 games and taking a veteran Heat team to seven games in the first round is definitely the black hole.  I'd much rather be the Sixers or the Lakers.  That's where you really want to be!


To answer the bold, the answer is yes. 16 teams is pointless, except for it brings in a boat load of money. The NBA is not like any other league. A team very rarely (Knicks as 8th seed?...but who else?) get "hot" for 4 rounds. Just look at the last 15-20 finals. There is a reason teams "blow it up"...which is not what I am advocating. Getting bounced in the first round every year gets you a marginal player in the draft. 9/10 times Malik Beasley or Demetrius Jackson are not changing the franchise. Again, the team is better than it has been but acting like they had the talent to go to the conference finals is preposterous.


Also, not everyone is in the black hole. If you are consistently getting bounced in the first round, drafting 18-24, are not a free agent destination, and don't draft that well, then yes you are. Charlotte fits that bill. We have to trade and hope players want to resign for the most part. We will see what happens with Batum. We will offer max money just like everyone else and I really hope he stays - I think he will. However, without us hitting the jackpot in the draft or phenomenal player development we will be where we are. Also can we stop with the taking the Heat to seven? Fact is we took home court advantage and we s*** the bed.


sportsman1417

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Reply #110 on: April 11, 2017, 08:34:31 am
Maybe next year...


cltniners

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Reply #111 on: April 11, 2017, 02:32:08 pm
clt says jordan needs to turn the team over to a competent owner.


moss2k

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Reply #112 on: April 11, 2017, 02:38:46 pm
In Rich Cho we trust.


bleedsgreenandgold

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Reply #113 on: April 11, 2017, 02:57:49 pm
Maybe next year...


Kemba rant in 3...2...1


charlottewkndbuzz

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Reply #114 on: April 11, 2017, 03:14:55 pm
clt says jordan needs to turn the team over to a competent owner.

Jordan is fine imo.  The organization itself does great things in the community.  The Hornets brand is stronger than ever and there are a lot of positive things going on outside of basketball. 

Team wise, that is all on Cho.  Jordan basically gave him the keys to do whatever with the team (I'm sure he gets a little input from both Cliff and Jordan), but ultimately, Cho makes the calls in regards to that stuff.  Hopefully Cho can surround Kemba with a lot more talent and we will be more competitive in the near future.  Hopefully post HB2 the All star game will be here in 2019 if all goes well...would be nice to have a Hornet in the All star game again.  But as far as I'm concerned, build around Kemba/Zeller only...rest of the team too inconsistent.  I like MKG, but you have to play more than just defense in this league.  If Cho can't get things rolling, then it's up to Jordan to make some changes. *I do believe if Cody wasn't injured for 2/3+ weeks, we'd be in the playoffs.*


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Reply #115 on: April 11, 2017, 04:45:13 pm
The Hawes/Plumlee deal still baffles me.
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SteauA

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Reply #116 on: April 12, 2017, 08:27:56 am
clt says jordan needs to turn the team over to a competent owner.

Jordan is fine imo.  The organization itself does great things in the community.  The Hornets brand is stronger than ever and there are a lot of positive things going on outside of basketball. 

Team wise, that is all on Cho.  Jordan basically gave him the keys to do whatever with the team (I'm sure he gets a little input from both Cliff and Jordan), but ultimately, Cho makes the calls in regards to that stuff.  Hopefully Cho can surround Kemba with a lot more talent and we will be more competitive in the near future.  Hopefully post HB2 the All star game will be here in 2019 if all goes well...would be nice to have a Hornet in the All star game again.  But as far as I'm concerned, build around Kemba/Zeller only...rest of the team too inconsistent.  I like MKG, but you have to play more than just defense in this league.  If Cho can't get things rolling, then it's up to Jordan to make some changes. *I do believe if Cody wasn't injured for 2/3+ weeks, we'd be in the playoffs.*




Literally had one this season (Kemba).


charlottewkndbuzz

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Reply #117 on: April 12, 2017, 09:03:31 am
clt says jordan needs to turn the team over to a competent owner.

Jordan is fine imo.  The organization itself does great things in the community.  The Hornets brand is stronger than ever and there are a lot of positive things going on outside of basketball. 

Team wise, that is all on Cho.  Jordan basically gave him the keys to do whatever with the team (I'm sure he gets a little input from both Cliff and Jordan), but ultimately, Cho makes the calls in regards to that stuff.  Hopefully Cho can surround Kemba with a lot more talent and we will be more competitive in the near future.  Hopefully post HB2 the All star game will be here in 2019 if all goes well...would be nice to have a Hornet in the All star game again.  But as far as I'm concerned, build around Kemba/Zeller only...rest of the team too inconsistent.  I like MKG, but you have to play more than just defense in this league.  If Cho can't get things rolling, then it's up to Jordan to make some changes. *I do believe if Cody wasn't injured for 2/3+ weeks, we'd be in the playoffs.*




Literally had one this season (Kemba).

I know Kemba was an All Star this season...lucky to have been chosen too bc that was in the midst of our decline and we were below .500 at the time.  Glad he was chosen though, he deserved it.  But I was referring to when Charlotte is the host city for the All Star game in 2019, I would like to see some of our players make the team.  Would be a really special All Star game for the city if we could have 1 or more players make it (right now Kemba is the only all star caliber player on the roster).


charlottewkndbuzz

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Reply #118 on: April 14, 2017, 01:20:38 pm
A good article about everything we kind of been talking about above:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/scott-fowler/article144468419.html

Reiterating that Cho is in charge (team wise).  Sounds like next season is a make or break it season...and everyone is on the hot seat (Cho & even Cliff).


 

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